Hello, thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a thrill to be here.

Well, I was a broadcaster, yes, I was also a senior manager at a radio station called Join 94.9, which is Australia's first LGBTIQA+ radio station. So my practice has been embedded in the community sector ever since the beginning, and I think that really informed the way that I approach projects as well. For me, it was always about sort of providing as much opportunity for as many people to have a voice as possible. So as you can imagine a radio station, it's literally you're carving up the grid, you're carving up the radio station grid and kind of going, this is the slot that you have, and what community, what part of the community do you represent, and what can you tell us, what's your story? So I think that that has very easily sort of transferred across to the museum world, because I think that's what we're all kind of thinking of at the moment, you know, how do we make sure that our museums are as representative as possible, and we seek to be as diverse and inclusive as possible as well.

I think there was an aha moment, yeah. It was definitely as I was at the V&A. So I moved to the UK about 10 years ago, and I really had trouble finding friends, making friends and connecting. And I think that that's probably an experience that a lot of people new to London will find. And I think that for me as a volunteer at the museum, as I kind of got to know the organisation, and as I got to know the people, that's where that aha moment started to happen. It wasn't just a moment, it was sort of like a series of moments, I suppose, but it was really just about understanding that this place that I thought was, this very grand prestigious place, it was actually a place where I could have a voice and where I could contribute and where I could actually help build community around it as well.

For me, it's always been about the idea of community building. It's always been that core emphasis that I had learnt and was part of me at that radio station. It was about trying to provide an opportunity for people to come to the table, to bring their voice to the table and to share their stories, the stories that they're interested in. I think I saw a spark of connection when I sort of mentioned that, you know, people coming to London, that idea that you're trying to find a community. I think I saw a spark in your eyes Alina, is this something that you connect with?

I was very lucky. It was just the right time. So the new volunteer coordinator at the time, and they were two in place at the time, but now that volunteer coordinator has become the volunteer manager. So Caterina Bisquert is there and has always been there for me, and Caterina was effectively opening up the V&A, so sort of saying we're going to change the way that we have volunteers work at the organisation and the sort of volunteers that we have coming into the organisation, it was a really strong drive to diversify the team. So I came in during that particular cohort, and it was a wonderful time to be there, because it was looking at how we inclusively bring in a different volunteer team. I kind of categorize myself in that sort of respect, because for me, I'm, in many ways, an outsider to the traditional sense of the organisation. But the traditional sense is now long gone as well, you know, it's been something that museums have been working very hard to change. And the particular wave that I came in on was just wonderful to be there, because it was in my own sort of journey of finding connection, trying to find the community around me. It was also me realizing that as I said before, you know, I have a place here, I can belong in this place.

Yeah, I think that's definitely, it was also me being opportunistic, I think, to be completely honest, because we had a Friday Late that was coming up, that was queer-themed. And I think when you have a Friday Late, you can come up to the Friday Late corner and just kind of go, I've got this idea, and can we give it a go. So the idea was, let's start doing the tours, and instead of just having people come to the museum, and, you know, the V&A is a very old building, and it's built over years, so there's parts that don't really, naturally connect up. It's a confusing place to navigate. So I thought, well, instead of just sort of saying, you can go to that lecture, that's right at the back in the lecture hall, why don't we have volunteers who kind of take people there, and on the way, they'll just point to the different objects in the galleries that are LGBTQ+ significant. And it was just a nice, easy idea, and the coordinator was really up for it, and we did it. That's how the idea became something that has now been put into the permanent programme.

Because I took it back to Caterina, I said, you know, I think there's something here, there is something quite special. And we were doing groups of about 10-ish or so, and we agreed that we would do the proper launch. I thought that the proper launch would mean around about 10 or so people, but when we did the very first official announced LGBTQ+ tour, it's now in the permanent schedule, last Saturday of every month at four o'clock, it was about 60 or so people that turned up, and we hadn't expected this. We thought that the people that were milling around were there for Alexander McQueen, just waiting for tickets. But it turns out, you know, I was there with a group of 10 people, I said, let's go and somebody tapped me on the shoulder and go, yeah, but what about the rest of us? And I turned around, oh, wow, ok, we've got quite an audience now. And it's been growing and growing, and we're getting close to 6000 people before lockdown that had come to see the tour. But we've also pivoted, we've changed, we've moved online, and we've seen 10s of 1000s now online who have “attended” the tour as well. So it's just been this wonderful, wonderful ride.

I think a lot of people who work in museums will sort of point to that pivotal moment, in 2017, when the partial decriminalization of homosexuality in England and Wales happened, and so many organisations marked it. I think most notably, Tate Britain marked it with Queer British Art, curated by Clare Barlow. So I think that we are riding this wave of interest, and also support, and support across all levels of the sector, from the audience through to the, you know, your trustees, your senior management, your staff, the front of house, the volunteers, all that. I think there was such strong support, and that's how we were able to ride this wave, this crest into success. I think that it also really comes down to that audience perspective. We kind of briefly touched on that, on the idea of belonging, I think that's what audiences want. You know, when we launched the tours proper we said, we don't just recognize that there's queer history here in the collection, we also celebrate it. So you're not just welcome, you're celebrated when you come here. I think that message really, really resonated with a lot of people who were trying to find things and connections and people in the collection that, you know, the makers or the people depicted in the art, who they could connect with and find a meaningful connection. That sort of also resonates with the core of their own being, so I think that's what probably helped with the tours.

A goal is fun, I think that's a really important part of what we do, which is they should have fun on the tour. And at the same time, there's really strong, rigorous research backing up everything we say and we do. But I think ultimately, they want to have a good time. So they're coming in, and they want to be part of that group, you know, the 100 bodies that are there, that come on a standard tour now. There was one that I had when we were aligned with the anniversary of the Stonewall riots, so I said, let's reclaim this space, why don't we all shout the word queer on the count of three, and we went 1, 2, 3, and this cohort of people, about 100 bodies all shouted the word queer, and it just shook, you know, for me, it shook the very foundations of the organisation. I think that that's also part of what they're looking to do, they're trying to find a way in which they can connect with the history that they are contributing to as well. So I think that that very idea is that queer history is alive, and that's what they want to be part of, they want to belong to the community, they want to understand that they've got a place that exists across place, time and culture. And they also want to be able to say that, yeah, this is, I am queer history, and I'm celebrated here.

It's interesting, I don't think I have, not on a tour. And I know, wow.

Yeah, you're right, it is, absolutely, because I think we've all been on social media, we know what that's like. But I think when you're in person, there's a stronger ability to reach out to someone and find a sense of connection or empathy or sympathy for what you're doing. Some people will challenge you outright on what you're saying, and you kind of go well, it's alright, I've read many, many books, and here are the receipts. I think that there is a, talking about that social media element, there is a really nasty element that's going around at the moment around trying to really put down trans non-binary people, and it's something that we are very aware of, and all the organisations I work with are very aware of this. But we're going to continue to support trans non-binary people, we're looking for objects that help tell of a story of how trans non-binary people have existed across place, time and culture. And also, by banner sort of, say, we support you, I think it's a really important step that museums are making at the moment, because you can kind of say that you're being diversity inclusive, but there also are points in time where you're going to have to hold the line. And I think that this is something that is really important for us, because when we do any training, we often sort of sit around and kind of think about who's at the table and who's missing from the table. I think that that's probably a part of my own community, that it's definitely more marginalized, but it's also not as well represented at the moment. So we're trying to do as much as we can to sort of say, well, we would love to have you part of the team, we'd love to support you, because for me, the more diverse the team is, the more diverse the objects and the stories that we tell, and therefore, more diverse the audience that comes to see us is. And I think that's a really, really important thing that for me, I'm keeping in the back of my mind, or I'm constantly active in as well, sort of how do we make sure that our work is truly inclusive.

I think the initiatives are about opening up the collections and making them more accessible to people. I think that at the heart of it is trying to make sure that we are representative as collections. And for me, personally, when I engage with a museum, because I work with many, it's always about trying to find how we can ensure that the work is embedded as well. So it's a question from the start of how do we make sure what we do will actually change the practice of the organisation and change the way in which we engage with LGBTQ+ audiences and ensure that it's sort of not a time limited event. It's not just, this is what we're doing and then it stops. I think for me, that's a really important part of the way that we should approach the projects as well. So I like to work with volunteers for that very reason, because you're kind of helping to expand the way that you can interpret a collection, you know, the multiple viewpoints that can be placed onto a particular object. I really like to work with the idea of lived experience as well. And also what a person's eye brings to the table or their queer eye brings to the table. So working with a volunteer, I kind of bring them and sort of go, what do you see when you first approach an object? What do you see right there and then? And what you see is quite important to that particular interpretation. I hold it with as strong importance as with what a curator who's obviously spent decades of research and understanding and looking at the object, I kind of hold them with equal weight, because I think it should be as well. That's the whole point of providing multiple perspectives to a particular object. And I think it's a very powerful one, when you kind of work with voices or people who are from a more, often marginalized community, because you're sort of saying to them, we are going to - it's a word that I haven't used in a long time, but we're going to empower you, we're going to give you the means to provide your story to this as well.

So we've just had our first symposium at the Queer Heritage and Collections Network. So that's the partnership that's founded by the National Trust, English Heritage, Historic England, Historic Royal Palaces and the Research Center for Museums and Galleries supported by Art Fund. So many, many organisations involved. And as part of that, they all had a chance to showcase what they do, and how they're engaging with LGBTQ+ audiences. So I really love the programme that Historic Royal Palaces is doing in terms of live interpretation, and the way that they allow playwrights and actors to kind of play around with the idea as well, because the whole thing is, lots of LGBTQ+ history, we don't have it, because it was recorded in a particular way, or it was recorded and then destroyed. So much of our history has been removed, suppressed, obliterated, so the ability for a playwright to go in and kind of look at the gaps and kind of go, I can fill those in, there's a bit of imagination that I can place here that will help people connect with the history more strongly. So that's great to see, what they're doing. And then over on English Heritage's side, they've just done the big shout out, they've actually just put up a video of the shout out project that they did with young people. And that was them working with a playwright from National Youth Theatre and with actors and workshopping a story with the young people, and they are all from Metro Charity, which is a predominantly LGBTQ+ support charity in London. And they brought the Eltham Palace to life, the history of Eltham Palace, they brought that to life. One of the actors in it sort of mentioned that, you know, they are a black, queer, Asian woman, and yet they were able to play this homophobic white Queen, Queen Isabella, they love doing that. But also they were engaged in this remarkable history and able to tell the story.

I think if you want to get involved with LGBTQ+ tours, there's so many different organisations that are doing at the moment, and they're definitely open to it. And at the moment, it's about being open to different ways of doing it as well. So we've got to go digital, we've got to do it online, we've got to find ways of making it engaging online as well. So I think that LGBTQ+ History Month is a great place to start in terms of looking for organisations getting involved, because you can see all the wonderful organisations involved with the Out in the Past Conference, which is sort of, I think it's about 20 organisations across the UK this year, or 20 locations in the UK. Of course, with the Queer Heritage and Collections Network, we've identified about 60 organisations that are wanting to do LGBTQ+ history heritage, they're either in some point of already doing it or they're going to start, there's so many different varying levels of engagement there, but there's about 60 organisations across four nations and regions. So I'm very happy to kind of provide references if you want to find the place that's local to you, so you can jump to me on @DanNouveau on social media, get the plug in early.

19:00

That is a dream come true for me, I had to pinch myself on the day before launch. And we launched in the middle of LGBTQ+ history month this year, so in the middle of hundreds of different things that are going on, but I had to sit down and remind myself of exactly what had happened. So I've come from Melbourne, and when I was growing up, I am coming out, the V&A fashion books were my Bible, it's what I read, just kind of think, well, this is what people wear if they're LGBTQ+. And one of the people on the course, the lecturer is going to be Sean Cole, who wrote a lot of those articles. So I'm now working with someone that I looked up to as a young boy. So it is like a dream come true. There are so many amazing people on this course as well as doing lectures. I mentioned the Queer British art exhibition at the Tate, Claire Barlow is giving a lecture. You've got some of the best people in the country thinking of LGBTQ+ history and heritage delivering these talks. And we sold out, which is brilliant as well, because this is probably the first sort of national museum that I can think of that is doing a course like this. So that's a remarkable thing. But that we sold out, I should hope, will mean that we've proven the point that you can build it and they will come. It's just the cohort of students that we've got, are just from all walks of life, which is brilliant as well. So you've got people who have engaged with the heritage sector before, some who are brand new to it, and others who are at different points in their own journey in terms of who they are as an LGBTQ+ person as well, and that's been lovely to see. So it's just a wonderful experience at the moment for me.

Well, there were a few of us sort of doing Museum From Home, it was an open hashtag that lots of people contributed to. So it was wonderful to see so many people approach it, from many different perspectives that you can. For me, Museum From Home became an excuse for me to have a conversation with someone every single day, because I was going through it on my own. So for me dialing in, at 12 o'clock with somebody, and sort of having a chat with them about what they like in their museum or what they're doing in their museum was just, it was such a relief. And being able to have everybody sort of eavesdrop on that was quite nice as well. So those conversations that I had, there's a board of just, for every single person I chatted with, I did a little nice cardboard cutout and coloured them in and put them onto the board. So there's now this rainbow of people, and all these fantastic people sort of engaging with our audiences in different ways, sort of how do you approach accessibility? How do you approach diversity, equality, inclusion? How do we get better representation? These were some of the conversations we had, and it was just great to see about almost 100 different perspectives, 100 different people chatted with me. So I'm so grateful to all those fantastic, wonderful, incredibly experienced people having a chat. And then we got to transfer that across to the BBC Arts, and that was just goes bonkers, just to think I was on BBC Arts, oh my God, hi, mom.

So Sasha Coward, who's another very popular museum person, he texted me, I think, or not texted, WhatsApped me, I'm not that old fashioned, he WhatsApped me. He WhatsApped me on the day that I just found out that the V&A was closing. So I actually, I ran into the V&A museum and just ran around taking photographs of things that I knew that were LGBTQ, in case I needed to use them during lockdown. So I had, you know, I have a camera full of my V&A pre-lockdown images. And then by the time that I got home, he had posted the first Museum From Home post, which was sort of like condensing the history of one object into one minute. And I posted my first by the end of that night as well. So it was, yeah, it was within that 24 hour time frame, so it was rather quick. It was a fast move.

Pretty, pretty quick, really on it, yeah. What do you think was kind of the reason behind the success? Is there something that you can put your finger on? It was a really pretty human series, it was very accessible and very sort of fun, but what do you put the success of that down to?

I think it was, obviously everyone was at home and missing the ability to go to a museum, that's definitely one part of it. But I think it was also the fact that we were doing it all very DIY, it was being pulled together, and it was something that sort of took away that glossy veneer that sometimes you spend so much time putting into with a museum. But when you take that away, you strip it back, you kind of go we're just like you, and we're kind of going through this experience as well, I think it gave some people a stronger connection, because they kind of looked at it and went, oh, right, I can get in on that, because I can tell a story in that way as well, or I've got an interest in this particular field, so I'm going to kind of look at that and bring that to the table. And I think that's the thing, it's just breaking down the barriers. I think that's why people kind of really liked it, because they could see how they would be part of it.

Do you think that there'll be sort of an audience for this kind of content still, once museums are open again, once people can do what they are used to doing? Or is it going to have to evolve again, to fit a new audience and a new taste?

Yeah, we are having discussions with Culture24, which is a sector support organisation, and I'm really interested in the way that we approach this in the future. The conversations we're having with the different people involved in this organisation is about digital literacy, how do we make sure that everyone has the ability to contribute digitally, and also may change that way. And it's that idea of what our sector looks like after we start to reverse the lockdown, as we start to open up again. I think that we should always try to think of that hybrid notion of, you know, we have our big blockbuster events, we have our exhibitions that look great, but how do we make sure that it's accessible? How do we make sure that as many people can connect to it as possible? So you've obviously got the footfall that happens, because people come physically to your space, but I think there's now been a really strong case put for the digital presence, making sure that people from around the world, wherever they are, can also affordably, possibly freely access that wonderful content that's available as well. So I think that going forward, we'll probably see an event happen, and at the moment, we're doing lots of Zoom events where it gets posted up online for free afterwards as well. And I'd love to see how we make sure that that's part of the mix. We've been doing a series of in-conversations at Queer Britain, for example, and it's something that we've had hundreds of people come to, on a scale that we never would have been able to do in person. So I think there's definitely an argument for making reach happen via the digital means as well.

I would love to see, I really hope this hasn't been done before, so this is new. One of the things I talk about a lot is the idea of how the colonial contact between the British Empire and so many parts of the world, it led to an imposition of laws around the world that are anti-homosexual, that have made it illegal to be homosexual and emphasis in many countries in which they are current or former Commonwealth countries. And I'd love to have an exhibition where you can show that arc, and also connect with all those communities and sort of see what's actually happening right now on the ground there, where they're trying to reform those laws. And why it would work as an exhibition, I think would be, because part of what you can do to help that reform is by looking at what existed prior to colonial contact, so the objects that we have in our collections that tell us of how diverse sexuality and gender was in the past, those are the objects that we can actually take, and sort of work with communities everywhere and sort of say, what is the significance of this. And it's often to sort of say, well, the law that was imposed is not our history, this is our history, so therefore, we should overturn these laws, because they're unconstitutional, they're not part of our history. So for me, it would be an exhibition that looks at decriminalizing homosexuality across the world, and from the perspective of the activists that are on the ground, doing that work right now. I've got to say very quickly that, you know, a kind of example of it has been done at the Pitt Rivers Museum, with Matt Smith's Losing Venus. But I think the ability to make contact with lots of organisations, collections, people, communities around the world would be what would make this a very, very expensive exhibition, perhaps.

It sounds fantastic. I'd go to it, like, that sounds fantastic, why hasn't that been done already? If there's one thing you want people to go away from this interview thinking about, what is it?

I think that would be the intersection between LGBTQ+ history and the colonial history as well. And what we can do, because we, now here in the UK and in Australia, it's easier to be LGBTQ+, but what about those countries that they're still fighting for their rights? So, for me, it's about how we use what we've got in our museums, our collections, to help tell those stories and tell very intersectional story, a very global story, and help work with and connect to communities around the world that are seeking reform at the moment. Because I think that's the thing, the objects that we have have a potential to tell a story about the past, but can also help shape, influence the present day and then shape the future.

Sorry, we didn't get to talk to you about Shout Out Loud and a couple of other bits and pieces from there, but we will have to have you back. I'm sorry, that's the only way we can do this. We'll just have to have Dan Vo part two.

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Where can people find you?

Well, it's funny you asked. They can find me @DanNouveau, that should get me across most social media platforms.

We hope you've enjoyed this week's episode of For Arts` Sake. If you'd like to learn more about who we are and what we do, find us online at forartsake.co.uk, on Twitter @sake_arts, or on Instagram @forartsake.uk