And I'm Sabila. Each episode we go behind the scenes of the art world today - for arts’ sake, and for your sake.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Carol, Liu Ding — thank you so much for being here today. Before we get into the show - I have to say — it's so unusual to find two people who have built a whole way of curating together over so many years. So tell us — how did each of you find your way into the art world?

To begin with, Liu Ding and I have actually been working together on curatorial projects for over 10 years. Before our joint curatorial work, Liu Ding had already been working as an artist since his early 20s, while I joined the arts scene a bit later. Initially, I was working in magazine editing, mostly reporting on cultural events. After meeting Liu Ding, I began to learn more about contemporary art and started working in the art field. Although we each have individual practices—Liu Ding as an artist, and I as a curator and writer—we have also collaborated extensively over the past decade, and even over the last 20 years, doing research in Chinese art history and co-curating exhibitions.

The Yokohama Triennale was founded in 2001. It is one of the largest international art exhibitions in Asia and also one of the longest-running large-scale international art exhibitions in Asia. Liu Ding and I actually received the invitation to submit an exhibition proposal in December 2021, while we were still very much in lockdown in China due to the COVID pandemic. It came as a great surprise because, by that time, we had been undergoing very strict lockdown measures for nearly two years, and we felt extremely isolated from the rest of the world. There were many intense emotions surrounding the social and political tensions at the time, especially as China was not on the best terms with the rest of the world due to different approaches to COVID prevention. So, when we received the email informing us that we were shortlisted for the Yokohama Triennale’s role of artistic director, we were both surprised and very encouraged. It felt like a sign that the global art world was opening itself up again, as the rest of the world was gradually opening up. 
As I explained earlier, a major part of our artistic education was shaped by the vast growth of international exhibitions across the world in the process of globalisation since the 90s, and throughout the 2000s. The Yokohama Triennale, along with many other biennales and triennales, not only presented contemporary art in a global context but also generated a type of art that came to be known as contemporary art. It is very much part of our education, it is very much part of our experience of contemporary art. It came as a moment of understanding what this process of biennales and triennales have affected our perceptions and our knowledge about global contemporary art.
After the invitation, we needed to submit an exhibition proposal, and then we went for an online interview because we were not able to travel. Through the online interview, we explained to the advisory committee of the Yokohama Triennale: our thinking process and how we envision some of the visions that we have for the Yokohama Triennale. The Selection Committee consisted of art historians, curators, museum directors, from Japan and abroad. We presented our proposal and answered a couple of questions, and within a few months, we received an email informing us of our selection. That’s essentially how we became involved with the Yokohama Triennale. 
A little bit more about the background, or history of the Yokohama Triennale. The Triennale had always been working with Japanese art historians and curators since its first edition until 2017, when it first began to open the Triennale to the international art community by inviting the Raqs Media to curate the 7th Yokohama Triennale. We are the second international curators to direct the Triennale. At the same time, the Triennale is unique in its history of occasionally working with artists as artistic directors. In our team, Liu Ding is the artist, which is also a unique aspect of the Triennale that needs to be highlighted, I would say.

As I was saying earlier, when we started to conceive the theme for the Triennale, we had already been through two years of lockdown. It was not only a great strain on our physical state, but also a challenge to our mental and psychological conditions. This experience made us reflect a lot on the historical processes that brought us to this moment. We were eager to understand why this happened, why there were so many differences in opinions, and why ideological tensions over approaches to COVID control became so heated. We were really thinking hard about the social, political, intellectual processes that contributed to that difficult condition we were in. 
At the same time, we reflected on the biennale and triennale format—these international exhibitions that have, since the 1990s, become a major platform for presenting and producing contemporary art. We felt that it was a moment to reassess and reevaluate such an exhibition format. As the world began reconnecting and reopening, quite a great number of biennales and triennales resumed their causes. So they began to open again, they were suspended during COVID, and they began to announce their upcoming opening dates. During that time, we sensed a fatigue surrounding biennales and triennales, as if they had lost much of their momentum and relevance. Since we were about to direct one ourselves, we wanted to reflect on and understand why this was the case.
We thought about the process of how the triennale and biennale came about and realised that some of the problems with biennales and triennales today are that many of these exhibitions are based on certain research, news, or timely issues but lack historical depth. As a result, much of the discussion on social conditions and issues remains superficial; it has become very flat.
We also felt that many large-scale exhibitions have turned into spectacles, more like entertaining events, rather than presenting very serious and in-depth historical discussion or serious engagement with important issues. We felt that the art market discourse has, to some extent, hijacked these large-scale exhibitions, making them more commercialised and entertaining, as I was saying.
We wanted to look for a theme that could contend, or address some of our concerns, and so we turned to Lu Xun because his book, ‘Wild Grass’, was written exactly 100 years ago. When he wrote it, he was in his middle age, just as Liu Ding and I are now. On a personal level, we identify with Lu Xun in his self-reflection and confrontation with his own frustrations as a middle-aged person in a society full of challenges. Chinese society at that time was extremely turbulent and unstable, filled with wars and conflicts. It was a society that had undergone a revolution, but a new social order had not yet come about, so frustration and depression became central themes in ‘Wild Grass’.
While ‘Wild Grass’ was written about hopelessness and despair, it was also about the resilience and agency of the individual. Instead of us preparing for the complete or perfect order in the discourse of modernism, this work was very much talking about individual agency and having the courage to confront desperation head-on. We found a great parallel between the social reality of 100 years ago and the current turbulent society–full of conflicts, wars, and disasters. It is so uncertain, and everyone has a great sense of frustration and hopelessness. These are shared feelings that we can identify with in Lu Xun’s work. We wanted to write the ‘Wild Grass’ of today through the Yokohama Triennale.

The Wild Grass of today. I really like the way you connected Lu Xun's time to our time. I mean, he was writing in a China full of conflict, with no clear path forward. And you were curating from a country in lockdown, which was cut off from the whole world at that time. And imagine that connection ran through every work in the show. So, Carol, I’m just wondering, how did Lu Xun's thinking come through in the artworks that you curated?

There are seven chapters in the Yokohama Triennale this year. One of the chapters is titled “My Liberation.” In this chapter, for the first time, we present a Japanese female artist. Her name is Tomiyama Taeko–she was born in 1921. She was undergoing a profound transformation, from being a young left-wing intellectual concerned with social justice in her youth, to–throughout her career, throughout her personal journey–growing into a mature mind that constantly reflected on her own position, while dialoguing with the historical conditions as well as the social realities she was in.
I presented a survey of her works through this journey of intellectual transformation. As she grew older, she developed independent thinking, independent judgement, instead of sticking to a particular position. This process of becoming mature, becoming independent, constantly engaging with a self-critical position, is a remarkable inspiration for us in terms of how we relate to our artistic path, as well as our social reality. That itself is a very good example of the kind of independent individual agency that Lu Xun explored in his work.

她希望我们再谈多谈一点，这个策展的过程，我们是如何选择艺术家和作品的，能不能给多一些细节.

Tā xīwàng wǒmen zài tán duō tán yīdiǎn zhège cè zhǎn de guòchéng, wǒmen shì rúhé xuǎnzé yìshùjiā hé zuòpǐn de, néng bùnéng gěi duō yīxiē xìjié.

对于选择艺术家来说，其实做这样的一个大型的双年展或者三年展，其实也是在考验策展人跟艺术界你交往这么多年的一个经验。因为这一些艺术家其实早就有很多是已经工作的，那所以就是说, 对于我们来说，很多是在已有的经验里来进行跟艺术家工作的。

Duìyú xuǎnzé yìshùjiā lái shuō, qíshí zuò zhèyàng de yīgè dàxíng de shuāng nián zhǎn huòzhě sān nián zhǎn, qíshí yěshì zài kǎoyàn cè zhǎn rén gēn yìshù jiè nǐ jiāowǎng zhème duōnián de yīgè jīngyàn. Yīnwèi zhè yīxiē yìshùjiā qíshí zǎo jiù yǒu hěnduō shì yǐjīng gōngzuò de, nà suǒyǐ jiùshì shuō, duìyú wǒmen lái shuō, hěnduō shì zài yǐ yǒu de jīngyàn lǐ lái jìnxíng gēn yìshùjiā gōngzuò de.

In terms of choosing the artists for the exhibition - in such a large-scale exhibition, we feel that it is a very important task for curators to work out the relationship with the artists, because many of the artists have already been working in the art field for a long time and have participated in many different exhibitions. When we invite them to participate in this exhibition, we need to have a very deep understanding of their artistic process, their artistic practices throughout different phases of their career in order to develop a more organic and profound work relationship.

另外一个其实也对策展人，对于艺术，历史和艺术世界的事业也是一个考验。那其实如果从一个展览里面，其实是能看出策展人对于艺术史的了解和对于这个艺术世界的动向的一个把握，也反映了策展人的价值观, 艺术上的价值观。

Lìngwài yīgèqíshí yě duì cè zhǎn rén duìyú yìshù， lìshǐ hé yìshù shìjiè de shìyè yěshì yīgè kǎoyàn. Nà qíshí rúguǒ cóng yīgè zhǎnlǎn lǐmiàn, qíshí shì néng kàn chū cè zhǎn rén duìyú yìshù shǐ de liǎojiě hé duìyú zhège yìshù shìjiè de dòngxiàng de yīgè bǎwò, yě fǎnyìngle cè zhǎn rén de jiàzhíguān, yìshù shàng de jiàzhíguān.

The other aspect to consider is the art historical vision and the art world perspective of the curator. The choice of artists would reveal that depth of historical understanding, as well as how well a curator understands the artistic dynamics of the art world of the moment. It is also a reflection of the value system or the worldview of the curator.

同样这个双年展、三年展是在当代艺术的范畴里边发生的。那其实在每一次的双年展和三年展里边，其实也是对于策展人如何拓展当代艺术这样的一个概念，这样一个边界是有所挑战和有所考考验的，它其实也是体现出一个流动的、当代的一个概念，那其实也需要这对策展是有非常大的挑战。

Tóngyàng zhège shuāng nián zhǎn, sān nián zhǎn shì zài dāngdài yìshù de fànchóu lǐbian fāshēng de. Nà qíshí zài měi yīcì de shuāng nián zhǎn hé sān nián zhǎn lǐbian, qíshí yěshì duìyú cè zhǎn rén rúhé tàzhǎn dāngdài yìshù zhèyàng de yīgè gàiniàn, zhèyàng yīgè biānjiè shì yǒu suǒ tiǎozhàn hé yǒu suǒ kǎo kǎoyàn de, tā qíshí yěshì tǐxiàn chū yīgè liúdòng de, dāngdài de yīgè gàiniàn, nà qíshí yě xūyào zhè duì cèzhǎn shì yǒu fēicháng dà de tiǎozhàn.

The third challenge we saw is that, since biennales and triennales are taking place within the discourse of international contemporary art, one should always try to expand the boundary, the definition of contemporary art while making such an exhibition. It is a great challenge for a curator to break through the existing definition of what is contemporary art. It also allows one to understand contemporary art in a fluid sense, not in a set canon.

What you said just now is really important — that a curator should always try to expand what contemporary art can be. And it leads me to something I've been wanting to ask. You're both based in Beijing. And you were leading one of Japan's biggest international exhibitions. So in your experience — what does it really take to lead an international exhibition like this?

她说我们如何看待这种跨双三年展，就是能对跨文化在跨文化的这个对话中扮演的一个角色。还有就是我们做，特别是从我们作为这个中国的这个策展人，在日本策划一个这样的国际的大型双三年展的意味是什么？

Tā shuō wǒmen rúhé kàndài zhè zhǒng kuà shuāng sān nián zhǎn, jiùshì néng duì kuà wénhuà zài kuà wénhuà de zhège duìhuà zhōng bànyǎn de yīgè juésè. Hái yǒu jiùshì wǒmen zuò, tèbié shì cóng wǒmen zuòwéi zhège zhōngguó de zhège cè zhǎn rén, zài rìběn cèhuà yīgè zhèyàng de guójì de dàxíng shuāng sān nián zhǎn de yìwèi shì shénme?

其实每一个双年展它是一个在所有人和观众的眼睛看起来它是一个国际的双年展。他其实但是他的这个国际的面貌背后呢，他其实考验。对于策展人来说，他对于挑战的是策展人他本身对于他本土的文化和历史的了解和熟知的一个深度。

Qíshí měi yīgè shuāng nián zhǎn tā shì yīgè zài suǒyǒu rén hé guānzhòng de yǎnjīng kàn qǐlái tā shì yīgè guójì de shuāng nián zhǎn. Tā qíshí dànshì tā de zhège guójì de miànmào bèihòu ne, tā qíshí kǎoyàn. Duìyú cè zhǎn rén lái shuō, tā duìyú tiǎozhàn de shì cè zhǎn rén tā běnshēn duìyú tā běntǔ de wénhuà hé lìshǐ de liǎojiě hé shúzhī de yīgè shēndù.

In the audience’s eyes, every biennale and triennale usually tend to appear as an international exhibition. But in our view, the real test–the real vision behind the biennale or triennale–is how deeply a curator understands the local culture and the local history.

我为什么说它是考验着这个策展人对于本土的文化和本土的历史的理解力呢？因为其实在我们没有做任何准备的时候，我们要跨区域、跨文化语境进行研究和工作的时候，我们最大的障碍就是对他者的文化不了解，即使我们通过学习进行了解也是非常有限的。

Wǒ wèishéme shuō tā shì kǎoyànzhe zhège cè zhǎn rén duìyú běntǔ de wénhuà hé běntǔ de lìshǐ de lǐjiě lì ne? Yīn wéi qíshí zài wǒmen méiyǒu zuò rènhé zhǔnbèi de shíhòu, wǒmen yào kuà qūyù, kuà wénhuà yǔ jìng jìnxíng yánjiū hé gōngzuò de shíhòu, wǒmen zuìdà de zhàng'ài jiùshì duì tā zhě de wénhuà bù liǎojiě, jíshǐ wǒmen tōngguò xuéxí jìnxíng liǎojiě yěshì fēicháng yǒuxiàn de.

What we are saying is that the ultimate challenge for a curator of an international exhibition is understanding one’s own culture and history. Without any preparation, embarking on the journey of curating an exhibition with cross-cultural and regional contexts raises the question: how can you learn? How can you learn about these other cultural contexts and regions that you will be working in? But simply acquiring specific information is limited. True learning comes from the methodology and systems of thought that you have developed by going deep into your own local context.

那如何有这样的能力能够跨越这些文化和语境来快速的进入到一个新的环境，其实只有通过在自己熟悉的文化语境里不断的磨练和不断的透析我们的自身的历史和透析我们自身的现状，这才有跟他者的文化有一种才能产生一个更深入的共情感。

Nà rúhé yǒu zhèyàng de nénglì nénggòu kuàyuè zhèxiē wénhuà hé yǔ jìng lái kuàisù de jìnrù dào yīgè xīn de huánjìng, qíshí zhǐyǒu tōngguò zài zìjǐ shúxī de wénhuà yǔ jìng lǐ bùduàn de mó liàn hé bùduàn de tòuxī wǒmen de zìshēn de lìshǐ hé tòuxī wǒmen zìshēn de xiànzhuàng, zhè cái yǒu gēn tā zhě de wénhuà yǒuyī zhǒng cáinéng chǎnshēng yīgè gēng shēnrù de gòng qínggǎn.

How does one become more quickly involved in different cultural or regional contexts? We feel that it requires curators to always work on their understanding and insights into their own artistic frontline and history, because this is where they practise on a daily basis. If you engage and commit into this local context that you are in and constantly work on growing, developing a better understanding and a sharper understanding of your context, then it will be easier for you to develop a deeper sympathy with cultural experiences and events from another region, or another cultural context.

当代世界其实是有充满了这个共通，但又充满了很多差异的一个世界。那其实我们很容易在事物的表面找到很多共通的、所谓的、普遍的道理，但事实上我们很难解析在背后这些共通道理背后的差异性。而对于一个跨文化工作或者是嗯跨国界的工作，其实更重要的了解是这些共通的这些现象背后它所不同的。
因为不同的历史、不同的环境所造成的这个不同的这个动力，它引起的一些虽然是共通的样貌，但它背后的那个不同点。

Dāngdài shìjiè qíshí shì yǒu chōngmǎnle zhège gòngtōng, dàn yòu chōngmǎnle hěnduō chāyì de yīgè shìjiè. Nà qíshí wǒmen hěn róngyì zài shìwù de biǎomiàn zhǎodào hěnduō gòngtōng de, suǒwèi de, pǔbiàn de dàolǐ, dàn shìshí shàng wǒmen hěn nán jiěxī zài bèihòu zhèxiē gòngtōng dàolǐ bèihòu de chāyì xìng. Ér duìyú yīgè kuà wénhuà gōngzuò huòzhě shì ń kuà guójiè de gōngzuò, qíshí gèng zhòngyào de liǎojiě shì zhèxiē gòngtōng de zhèxiē xiànxiàng bèihòu tā suǒ bùtóng de.
Yīn wéi bùtóng de lìshǐ, bùtóng de huánjìng suǒ zàochéng de zhège bùtóng de zhège dònglì, tā yǐnqǐ de yīxiē suīrán shì gòngtōng de yàng mào, dàn tā bèihòu dì nàgè bùtóng diǎn.

In the contemporary world, there are always many shared experiences, similarities, as well as diversities. When we look at events, experiences, from a superficial point of view, we can easily identify that the phenomena was similar. We might assume that this represents a kind of universality, but in fact, we often cannot really understand the real differences behind these shared similarities. So when one works across culture or national boundaries, it is very important to look beyond the shared similarities, to understand the very specific and different history, contexts, and how these differences have given different intellectual motivations for what was happening, instead of just stopping at observing what appears to be similar on the surface.

因为展览刚开，所以还是要一点时间来想一想。但是从过去一周里观众的热烈反应来看，大家很喜欢这样一个严肃的展览。而且对于日本的同行和其他国际的同行来说，就是说我们尝试在谱写一部复杂的交响曲，同行们都有很积极的反应，这个对我们来说是一个很重要的鼓舞。

Yīnwèi zhǎnlǎn gāng kāi, suǒyǐ huán shì yào yīdiǎn shíjiān lái xiǎng yī xiǎng. Dànshì cóng guòqù yīzhōu lǐ guānzhòng de rèliè fǎnyìng lái kàn, dàjiā hěn xǐhuān zhèyàng yīgè yánsù de zhǎnlǎn. Érqiě duìyú rìběn de tóngxíng hé qítā guójì de tóngxíng lái shuō, jiùshì shuō wǒmen chángshì zài pǔxiě yī bù fùzá de jiāoxiǎng qǔ, tóngxíngmen dōu yǒu hěn jījí de fǎnyìng, zhège duì wǒmen lái shuō shì yīgè hěn zhòngyào de gǔwǔ.

Liu Ding was saying that, from the very positive responses I’ve received in the last week, not only from the local audience but also from the international audience, the kind of attempt that we made in the Triennale, to write a symphony with quite a complex narrative structure. This attempt really resonates and attracts a lot of audience members that can identify with such attempts, so this has been very encouraging for us.

We never thought about the audience while planning the exhibition, to be very frank, because we felt that the audience is quite an abstract concept. You don't know who to expect, and you cannot really anticipate the knowledge or preparation of any audience member, as it is so diverse. One of the requirements and expectations we have for ourselves is to make things as clear and succinct as possible. We believe that if we make that effort and keep trying, the message can be easily conveyed.
To give an example, in this Triennale, we designed an exhibition structure that aligns with the symmetrical architectural features of the museum, which was built in 1989. It is very much a symbol of high modernism, constructed in marble, and everything is symmetric with variations. We aligned our exhibition design with the structure, creating chapters that echo and mirror each other while incorporating variations. This is something we did not articulate to the public, but just a few days ago, someone created a film on their own to fold the floor plan, showing other audience members how to experience the exhibition as symmetric as a folded piece of paper. Clearly, that message was successfully communicated through the exhibition language.
We felt that the consideration given to the selection of works, the narrative of the exhibition, and the exhibition design allowed most audience members to receive the message we tried to convey. But of course, we also had great help with the museum team, because there is a great emphasis on the Yokohama Triennale and not only being a professional art exhibition, but also an exhibition that could be visited and appreciated by the general public. The museum makes a great effort to write very simple text to explain each work without compromising its conceptual intensity, but explain the work in a simple language. There are tools that we can use to communicate the exhibition on many different levels.

Carol, I really love what you said about clarity. That everything — from the works you chose, to the way you designed the space, even the labels — was made with clarity in mind, so the message would get through. Beyond the show itself, what else did you do to bring it closer to people?

During the opening weekend, we have organised a series of artist talks with artists who were present to install the works. We invited them to talk in depth about their work in the Triennale, and how it related to their overall practice. Throughout the exhibition, we also plan to organise a series of artists talks.
At the same time, there is a small section in the exhibition titled "Post-Revolutionary Worlds," which comes from the observation of ongoing, autonomous cultural and artistic practices that have emerged in East Asia. Over the last two decades, many of these initiatives have been started by individuals. These kinds of initiatives involve fashion design, music, street performances, and even economic activities, such as running a hotel for very low rent or operating a second-hand electronics store for the community. These practitioners have been thinking and talking about building new social relationships in our daily lives. The idea is that instead of waiting for a revolution to come, we can already undertake revolutionary actions from our current positions in our own lives. It’s really a vivid manifestation of our exhibition team’s focus on individual agency.
Throughout the exhibition, while we present portraits of these practices through documentation and works, we will invite these practitioners and cultural activists to perform and give talks, so that the whole space can be activated with their thinking and actions. This is also an important part of our public activities. As I mentioned earlier, the Yokohama Triennale is truly a city-scale cultural event. There is great effort given into encouraging young people to come to the Yokohama Triennale. The Triennale has designed and printed about 400,000 copies of booklets to translate our exhibition themes and works, distributing these booklets to primary schools, middle schools, and high schools in Yokohama. Students will be organised and enc

I will translate this question to Liu Ding and maybe we can both answer. 
就是她说我们讲到了这个双三年展，在这个国际上的这样的一个位置，他想我们说一说双三年展会如何影响这个全球艺术的景观。

Jiùshì tā shuō wǒmen jiǎng dàole zhège shuāng sān nián zhǎn, zài zhège guójì shang de zhèyàng de yīgè wèizhì, tā xiǎng wǒmen shuō yī shuō shuāng sān nián zhǎnhuì rúhé yǐngxiǎng zhège quánqiú yìshù de jǐngguān.

双三年展的开始是兴盛于九十年代，它是一个城市宣传的一个城市文化宣传的一个产物。这样的一个文化, 从九十年代到今天，他已经发展了有三十多年的一个时间，那肯定他发展到今天跟他刚开始的样貌已经非常不同。

Shuāng sān nián zhǎn de kāishǐ shì xīngshèng yú jiǔshí niándài, tā shì yīgè chéngshì xuānchuán de yīgè chéngshì wénhuà xuānchuán de yīgè chǎnwù. Zhèyàng de yīgè wénhuà, cóng jiǔshí niándài dào jīntiān, tā yǐjīng fāzhǎnle yǒu sānshí duō nián de yīgè shíjiān, nà kěndìng tā fāzhǎn dào jīntiān gēn tā gāng kāishǐ de yàng mào yǐjīng fēicháng bùtóng.

Triennales and biennales really can mean a large number, developed very quickly in the 1990s along with the phenomenon of accelerated globalisation. It was very much part of the cultural industry push as well as the phenomenon of urban development. It has been through 30 years of development, and the way it is today has become very different from how it was 30 years ago.

我先讲三十年来始终有一些相同的东西，这相同的东西就是文化产业这样的一个概念，它对于一个每一个不同举办双三年展城市的一个意义。那这个概念呢是其实是每一个双三年展都具备的一个意义。但是也有不同的就是说随着双三年展的发展，它逐渐也成了策展人在这个利运用这个大型的双散联展，第一是挑战的这个策展的难度。
第二呢也对于策展人提出了很多有新的要求，就是说它不仅仅是选择作品放在展览里形成一个展览景观，而对于策展人如何运用展览与作为一个语言如何创作出展览的语言，如何展现策展人的历史观、世界观，他提出了种种的要求。
迫使很多策展人进行探索和尝试。

Wǒ xiān jiǎng sānshí niánlái shǐzhōng yǒu yīxiē xiāngtóng de dōngxī, zhè xiāngtóng de dōngxī jiùshì wénhuà chǎnyè zhèyàng de yīgè gàiniàn, tā duìyú yīgè měi yīgè bùtóng jǔbàn shuāng sān liánzhǎn chéngshì de yīgè yìyì. Nà zhège gàiniàn ne shì qíshí shì měi yīgè shuāng sān liánzhǎn dōu jùbèi de yīgè yìyì. Dànshì yěyǒu bùtóng de jiùshì shuō suízhe shuāng sān liánzhǎn de fǎ zhǎn, tā zhújiàn yě chéngle cè zhǎn rén zài zhège lì yùnyòng zhège dàxíng de shuāng sàn liánzhǎn, dì yī shì tiǎozhàn de zhège cè zhǎn de nándù.
Dì èr ne yě duìyú cèzhǎn rén tíchūle hěnduō yǒu xīn de yāoqiú, jiùshì shuō tā bùjǐn jǐn shì xuǎnzé zuòpǐn fàng zài zhǎnlǎn lǐ xíngchéng yīgè zhǎnlǎn jǐngguān, ér duìyú cè zhǎn rén rúhé yùnyòng zhǎnlǎn yǔ zuòwéi yīgè yǔyán rúhé chuàngzuò chū zhǎnlǎn de yǔyán, rúhé zhǎnxiàn cèzhǎn rén de lìshǐ guān, shìjièguān, tā tíchūle zhǒngzhǒng de yāoqiú.
Pòshǐ hěnduō cè zhǎn rén jìnxíng tànsuǒ hé chángshì.

First, I want to talk about the thing that has remained the same for biennales and triennales in the global landscape. As part of the creative industry, the meaning of biennales and triennales remains consistent for the cities that host such large-scale exhibitions. On the other hand, the existence of these large-scale exhibitions has continually challenged the profession of curators. To create such exhibitions, curators must not only choose the artists and the works but also create exhibition narratives and powerful exhibition language. Such expectations for curatorial practice itself push the development of the field, as they enable and inspire many curators to really explore different models of curating, and also to push the boundaries of curating.

所以双三年展的这些这样的一个发展，它其实是把传统一样作为一个服务性的策展人和研究的策展人，变成了一个更为全面的、能够提出世界观或者新的世界观和不同的学术主张的一个平台。

Suǒyǐ shuāng sān nián zhǎn de zhèxiē zhèyàng de yīgè fāzhǎn, tā qíshí shì bǎ chuántǒng yīyàng zuòwéi yīgè fúwù xìng de cè zhǎn rén hé yánjiū de cè zhǎn rén, biàn chéngle yīgè gèng wèi quánmiàn de, nénggòu tíchū shìjièguān huòzhě xīn de shìjièguān hé bùtóng de xuéshù zhǔzhāng de yīgè píngtái.

Development of the biennales and triennales has transformed, in a way, transformed the role of a curator from someone who mainly provides service and research in our historical terms to someone who should be able to present innovative or thought-provoking view of the world, of philosophical statements, as well as generate new scholarship. So the requirement, the bar, these have become more challenging for curators.

还有一个就是双三年展呢其实对于很多策展也提出一个要求，就是说有没有可能利用这样大的一个反腐的一个这样大型的一个平台，组织起不同的当代的样貌，塑造起不同的当代样。

Hái yǒu yīgè jiùshì shuāng sān nián zhǎn ne qíshí duìyú hěnduō cèzhǎn yě tíchū yīgè yāoqiú, jiùshì shuō yǒu méiyǒu kěnéng lìyòng zhèyàng dà de yīgè fǎnfǔ de yīgè zhèyàng dàxíng de yīgè píngtái, zǔzhī qǐ bùtóng dí dàng dài de yàng mào, sùzào qǐ bùtóng dí dàng dài yàng.

Another requirement for a large-scale platform and complex curatorial project is whether a curator can organise an exhibition that presents the multiplicity, a complex picture of contemporary art, and the complexity in the state of contemporary life.

Carol, Liu Ding — let's imagine there's a young curator out there, just starting their career, their first show. Based on your experience, what do you think they need to know?

One of the strengths that we feel we have, and that came into very practical use for us during this curatorial practice, is to always develop a deep understanding of the work of artists. In order to work with artists—not only choosing existing works but also working with them on new commissions—your full and deep understanding of an artist’s practice is really key to how well you can collaborate with them. You need to not only understand the stylistic and formal languages of an artist's work, but also have a deep understanding of how the artist works, including their processes, thinking processes, and intellectual motivations.
In terms of artists who are senior and have longer career paths, you need to understand their trajectories at different stages of their lives and how they engage with their contexts throughout this long career. Only with such a comprehensive and deep understanding of artists' work can you truly work with them in a very organic and collaborative way. This is something that we felt worked really well for us in this Triennale curating process.

It is a very difficult question for us. I will say, because if we allow ourselves to think freely, with any kind of possibility available, we would like to imagine a kind of museum that can exist in all kinds of contexts and moments of war, in moments of disasters as well as in peacetime, because people would need spiritual life, intellectual life within any context. So we will say, this will be the ideal museum or cultural space we want to dream of.

Carol, Liu Ding — thank you.